Against superstition

[adam kondor]

I sense musicians are especially receptive to irrational, mystical, "unscientific" thought...

Are YOU safe from 'otherworldly' influences? :)

.

[James Ross]

My witch doctor, who advises me on matters such as what books to read, who it's OK to throw rocks at and when to cut my hair, says all you rationalists are nuts.

[Shane W. Cadman]

Jeff says we have to include humor in our posts. This sounds quite serious!

James Ross said:

My witch doctor, who advises me on matters such as what books to read, who it's OK to throw rocks at and when to cut my hair, says all you rationalists are nuts.

[James Ross]

Well, it was meant to be funny. Maybe I should have included this:

Instant Rimshot

Shane W. Cadman said:

Jeff says we have to include humor in our posts. This sounds quite serious!

James Ross said:

My witch doctor, who advises me on matters such as what books to read, who it's OK to throw rocks at and when to cut my hair, says all you rationalists are nuts.

[Shane W. Cadman]

I didn't think the smiley was needed. No offense to your witch doctor. ;-)

James Ross said:

Well, it was meant to be funny. Maybe I should have included this:

Instant Rimshot

Shane W. Cadman said:

Jeff says we have to include humor in our posts. This sounds quite serious!

James Ross said:

My witch doctor, who advises me on matters such as what books to read, who it's OK to throw rocks at and when to cut my hair, says all you rationalists are nuts.

[James Ross]

Heh, heh ... No offense intended or perceived. ;-)

Shane W. Cadman said:

I didn't think the smiley was needed. No offense to your witch doctor. ;-)

James Ross said:

Well, it was meant to be funny. Maybe I should have included this:

Instant Rimshot

Shane W. Cadman said:

Jeff says we have to include humor in our posts. This sounds quite serious!

James Ross said:

My witch doctor, who advises me on matters such as what books to read, who it's OK to throw rocks at and when to cut my hair, says all you rationalists are nuts.

[Paul H. Muller]

Well I can't think of anything funny right this minute but I will say that I am a member here because I want to hear J.C. Combs (and others) opinions on music. He and I are going to be on opposites of the religious question. And that's OK because if I want hand-to-hand combat on that topic I can choose from several other blogs where I won't anger anyone I might respect for other reasons.

My battles with non-believers usually resolve down to this: Rationalism dictates that truth can only be arrived at by science, reason and logic. Therefore faith - which admits that truth can come from a different (i.e. revealed) source - is flawed. As I say, that particular battle belongs in another venue and I am happy to leave it there.

But where does the rationalist assertion that truth is a only product of reason and logic leave art and music?

Can we arrive at truth through music? Or is it just a clever way to transmit emotion?

Does music achieve any virtue in the rationalist worldview?


Any ideas, J.C?

[J.C. Combs]

Good post, Paul. I hope I don't put anyone off my music, but my views are stamped into my music and I plan to continue expressing my disbelief in god and my disgust with the religious right (and lately even the democratic party) through my works. So losing listeners probably goes along with the territory of creating works with religious/political/ social commentary. I am nowhere near those composers who sit on the fence, never revealing their political or religious views for fear of becoming unpopular. rimshot

So over to your questions:

But where does the rationalist assertion that truth is a only product of reason and logic leave art and music?

Fortunately, we are dealing purely with art and there doesn't have to be a commitment of belief, faith or worship there. HOWEVER, as you know, back in the old days composers had to report everything to the church and quite often their ideas and works were rejected. Similarly, scientists were killed back in the old days for their discoveries, such as the earth orbiting around the sun versus being the center of the universe which the church believed firmly from bible scriptures. rimshot

But more to your point, I think composing demands rational and logic. Whether we are aware of it or not, we are making mathematical computations while we compose. That doesn't mean the music is void of emotion.

Can we arrive at truth through music? Or is it just a clever way to transmit emotion?

Music transmits emotion (sometimes cleverly and sometimes bluntly), but also pleasure, relaxation, and thought to name a few positive effects. A rational person probably could arrive at the truth through music, whereas the irrational person might be moved to do something irrational if moved by music ;) rimshot

Does music achieve any virtue in the rationalist worldview?

I would gather that music achieves the most admiration under a rationalist world view since the rationalist most likely listens analytically. rimshot



Paul H. Muller said:

Well I can't think of anything funny right this minute but I will say that I am a member here because I want to hear J.C. Combs (and others) opinions on music. He and I are going to be on opposites of the religious question. And that's OK because if I want hand-to-hand combat on that topic I can choose from several other blogs where I won't anger anyone I might respect for other reasons.

My battles with non-believers usually resolve down to this: Rationalism dictates that truth can only be arrived at by science, reason and logic. Therefore faith - which admits that truth can come from a different (i.e. revealed) source - is flawed. As I say, that particular battle belongs in another venue and I am happy to leave it there.

But where does the rationalist assertion that truth is a only product of reason and logic leave art and music?

Can we arrive at truth through music? Or is it just a clever way to transmit emotion?

Does music achieve any virtue in the rationalist worldview?


Any ideas, J.C?

[Paul H. Muller]

Rationalism is a harsh mistress - only logic, science and reason can ascertain truth. Doesn't leave much room even for emotion. Even religious composers depend on rational construction of music - as you point out. Bach may be the outstanding example.

Too much rationalism and you turn into Spock. Too much emotionalism and you become Dr. McCoy.

Tricky balance - one that even Star Trek couldn't resolve...

[Lee Noyes]

adam kondor said:

Well, actually, children are very much sensitive to lying. I bet, there is a chance that it'd be a better world...


Lee Noyes said:

Sheesh...

Imagine a civilisation that didn't tell its children stories, only the 'truth'.

Discover what it is -
The blind, loud beast from before the flood,
Without flesh, without bone,
Without vein, without blood,
Without hand, without foot...
It is wet, it is dry.
It is hard like flint.
It is salt like brine.
It is sweet like honey.
This beast comes crawling
When the sun is hot.
This beast comes crying
When the moon is cold.
Not crawling, not crying,
But running and oaring.
Come beast, now
To the court of Maelgwyn!

--------------------------

Nobody wants to be lied to.

The difference here is between living pictures and 'facts'. It is no co-oincidence that our language, in its infinite/folk wisdom refers to the latter as cold and hard.

l i f

[adam kondor]

Hm... living pictures are just too often interpreted mistakenly as facts...
In my country right now a 'living picture' of the self-evident greatness of 'Hungarians' effectively endangers the life of certain groups of people and even the political stability of the region.

Lee Noyes said:

adam kondor said:

Well, actually, children are very much sensitive to lying. I bet, there is a chance that it'd be a better world...


Lee Noyes said:

Sheesh...

Imagine a civilisation that didn't tell its children stories, only the 'truth'.

Discover what it is -
The blind, loud beast from before the flood,
Without flesh, without bone,
Without vein, without blood,
Without hand, without foot...
It is wet, it is dry.
It is hard like flint.
It is salt like brine.
It is sweet like honey.
This beast comes crawling
When the sun is hot.
This beast comes crying
When the moon is cold.
Not crawling, not crying,
But running and oaring.
Come beast, now
To the court of Maelgwyn!

--------------------------

Nobody wants to be lied to.

The difference here is between living pictures and 'facts'. It is no co-oincidence that our language, in its infinite/folk wisdom refers to the latter as cold and hard.

l i f